Legal Tech StartUp Focus Podcast

Democratizing Fundraising: How SeedLegals is Revolutionizing Startup Fundraising

• Charles Uniman

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What if raising capital for your startup could be 10x cheaper and dramatically faster? Anthony Rose, founder and CEO of SeedLegals (https://seedlegals.com), reveals how the SeedLegals platform has revolutionized fundraising for UK startups and why he's now bringing this game-changing solution to the US market.

This conversation sheds light on some hidden pitfalls of startup seed and Series A fundraising that can cost founders dearly. Among those pitfalls are hazards that can lurk in those seemingly simple YC SAFEs (where, for example, conversion mathematics often result in founders unknowingly giving away significantly more equity than anticipated). We also explore why US startups typically pay tens of thousands of dollars (or more) for priced funding rounds when SeedLegals can deliver the industry-standard documents (together with additional services) starting at a fraction of what's typically charged.

Beyond cost savings, Anthony shares how SeedLegals addresses the fundamental power imbalance between founders and investors. Based on access to data from thousands of funding rounds, SeedLegals empowers founders with knowledge, particularly when it comes to knowing which deal terms are genuinely market standard and where founders should push back on investor-offered terms. By streamlining the legal aspects of a founder's startup fundraising journey, that founder can devote more energy to what truly matters – creating products customers love.

The conversation also offers invaluable business advice for founders, such as the importance of focusing on customer-driven development. For example, Anthony suggests getting out from behind screens to validate ideas directly with potential users. As Anthony puts it, "Success isn't just building and shipping something; success is also people wanting what you've built." 

Whether you're raising your seed round or looking to optimize your Series A, this episode provides founders with the insider knowledge they need to navigate fundraising more efficiently and avoid costly mistakes that could haunt them (and their cap table) for years to come.

Speaker 1:

Hello everyone, I'm speaking to you, your host podcast host Charlie Uniman from a sunny South Orange, new Jersey. Wintry one, but sunny nonetheless. Good to have the winter sun. But more importantly, I'm very happy to have as a guest today Anthony Rose of Seed Legals. That's S-E-E-D-L-E-G-A-L-S. We're going to talk a lot about Seed Legals. I'll let Anthony do that mostly, but I did meet Anthony most recently at the LegalTech. Summit in Miami in December last year.

Speaker 1:

We had a chance to spend some time chatting. Although we met briefly the year before. At the same time we spent more time together and Anthony very graciously agreed to be a guest on the podcast. So welcome, anthony.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, Charlie, and thank you so much for the opportunity to be on the podcast.

Speaker 1:

Well, the pleasure is mine and, I'm sure, our listeners. Anthony is in London right now, but he'll be talking about the US and Anthony and the US and seed legals in a little bit. So enough of me. At least, let's have Anthony give us an idea of what seed legals is, what its functionality but better described as its benefits for its uses are its activities in the US and what it offers. That makes this very special offering for startups in particular. Anthony, tell us about Seed Legals.

Speaker 2:

All right, so thank you very much. Just before, I'll tell you very briefly about me. So I'm a lawyer.

Speaker 1:

Good for you, smart man.

Speaker 2:

I'm a tech product guy. We employ lots of lawyers. But I'm a tech product guy. We employ lots of lawyers. But I'm a tech product guy and years ago I used to head up BBC iPlayer that's the UK's version of Hulu built a whole streaming media service and so on. And then I left the BBC. I built a startup, sold it. Built a startup, sold it, invested in a few, got tired of paying lawyers, met my co-founder, laurent, a genius ex-VC and serial angel investor, and created Seed Legals to make fundraising much easier for everyone else. So Seed Legals were a team of 160 people based in London.

Speaker 2:

About half of all UK startups are on seed legals, like 50,000 startups. About a third of all early stage investment in the UK is done through seed legals. So what is seed legals? It's a team and platform to help you get investment ready and do all the legals, principally for a funding round, but also for safes, cap table, option schemes and more. So what happens is early stage founders discover seed legals, hit web, chat, talk to one of our team. There's no meter running like a law firm. You can ask us all sorts of things about anything from pitch deck to fundraising, but the paid part of the platform is really about. I'd like to do a funding round, whether it be a price round or raising the safes. Help me do everything.

Speaker 2:

And, principally, the key value that we're now launching in the US is to change the way companies do priced rounds. So let me take a step back, because one of the interesting things with starting with the UK perspective is it lets you see the world through a different lens. And in the UK people do priced rounds pretty early on in their company. So why? Because it's very inexpensive, thanks to seed legals, to do a priced round, Whereas in the US what seems to happen is the legal bills for a priced funding round with a law firm range from $25,000 to $100,000 or even more. It's insane.

Speaker 2:

So what's happened is a few years ago, yc came out with the YC safe. That basically says the cost of those funding rounds are so crazy we're going to kick the can down the road and we're going to throw all the legals two years later and instead we're going to sign these simple agreements that say I'm going to give you money now and you promised to give me shares later. And it's called a safe. It sounds safe, but it's not really safe because for investors they're not getting shares. The jury's still out whether the QSBS tax clock starts at the time they enter into the safe or only when shares are issued later. So it's still unknown from the IRS whether you have to keep your stock for five years before you can get no capital gains tax, and that's unknown.

Speaker 2:

And for the founders, safes are distinctly unsafe because the YC post-money cap safe and we're getting a bit technical here the way it converts is founders think that it converts at the valuation of the cap, that it converts at the valuation of the cap less the value of all outstanding safes. So let me give you an example. Let's say you're a founder raising a million dollars on a $5 million YC post-money cap safe. So you think that those safes you're raising if your next funding round is at a valuation greater than $5 million, you think they'll all convert it $5 million and you're going to give away $1 million out of $5 million in equity, but in fact they're all going to give away you know, 1 million out of 5 million in equity, but in fact they're all going to convert at a 5 million less 1 million, as in a $4 million valuation, and you're going to be giving away a lot more equity than you thought.

Speaker 2:

So when I moved to New York and began talking to US founders, I was surprised how many mistakes early stage founders make. They incorporate as an LLC instead of a C corporation, they don't know about the QSBS tax benefits, they enter into these YC safes without understanding how they're going to convert later. And they make other mistakes that basically companies in the UK don't make because there's a platform like SeedLegals. So there are, of course, platforms like Carter, clerky and many others that do safes and cap tables and so on, but there doesn't seem to be a service that really is an end-to-end platform and people that helps founders. And I think that's the missing piece, together with revolutionizing the way that you can now do a priced round at dramatically less cost.

Speaker 2:

So what is a priced round? Well, a priced round is a whole set of legal documents there's a stockholder agreement, there's an updated certificate of incorporation and other legal documents and warranties and so on that are designed to provide principally the investors, but also the founders, with a sort of checks and balance protections later on for when disputes come up or when you want to sell your company or when you want to issue more stock or whatever it might be, and there is a standard in the US called the NVCA, the North American Venture Capital Association. So over decades, a bunch of law firms got together and they created a standard and these documents are basically I mean, they're lengthy but they're pretty standard and there are a set of deal terms they're probably like 12 key deal terms that get negotiated in a funding round. Obviously, things like the valuation and you know who are the investors and how much are they investing and who's going to be on the board and how many directors will there be, and so on. But actually the key part of a funding round is this negotiation and particularly in early stage rounds, the answer is always remarkably the same.

Speaker 2:

So what we've learned over doing thousands of funding rounds in the UK, we've created something called Termometer which analyzes what choices people make the negotiations in funding rounds and then suggests with data by the way, you're probably going to pick this term, because the problem for founders is there's an information asymmetry with investors, particularly funds. Funds have done this many times and exactly what they want. Some of them are like, very smart, some of them a bit on the sharp side. Um, as a founder, you're thinking, oh, my god. The investor wants a preferred share. Am I an idiot for agreeing to it? Or am I the idiot for pushing back on it? Because it's crazy? They're obviously going to get it.

Speaker 2:

So founders don't know what the answer is, and our goal at Seed Legals is to empower and educate the founders by showing them what's market standard, when they should push back and when not, but also, importantly, pushback and when not. But also importantly, to change the way that legal documents are negotiated, from this insane practice of I call my lawyer and they create a Word document and then they send it to the other party's lawyer and for $600 an hour or more, they send these redlined Word documents back and forth between each other where I have no idea what they mean. There's hundreds of pages of gobbledygook, but this is what computers are for. So what we do is we take the founders through the key deal terms in a funding round. There are probably, as I said, about a dozen, a few more key things, so you understand how your business is going to be governed and can investors kick you out later, like Sam Altman or not, and hopefully not put yourself in that position and then we build the same NVCA standard documents that a law firm would build that instead of charging $50,000, it starts at $4,000. And, importantly, because the machine generates them in like two seconds, everything goes much faster and every time you want to negotiate and change something, everything gets updated in like a second.

Speaker 2:

So we found this formula works hugely successfully in the UK and now we want to bring the same to the US, in the UK, and now we want to bring the same to the US.

Speaker 2:

So, you know, I've moved to New York and now looking to do the same in the US, and what's really interesting is, for me, as a founder journey, it's like going back seven years in time, because in the UK, when we go to a startup event, most founders in the room are on our platform, they're our customers and most people know me. When I go to New York, hardly anyone knows me and hardly anyone is on Seedlegals, and my goal is, like what's the fewest number of weeks to change that and also, of course, to learn what are the pain points that founders have, so we can make sure that our platform addresses exactly those. So, as you can tell, I'm quite passionate about democratizing the ability of founders to not just fundraise faster and less expensively, but to be empowered so that they are in control of their business in a way that potentially they would have had more difficulty doing before.

Speaker 1:

Well, I do think that and I'm sure you'll agree, the men and women who were founders of startups are pretty and there's a little magic to it all. It's nuanced in certain respects, doing a priced route, but it's not magic. Whiz back and forth with often impatient lawyer, junior or senior taking time to explain them to the founder client is a wonderful thing. I've said this to several founders and having heard you describe at some length what Seed Legals is doing, you're doing God's work, anthony. You truly are so bless you, that's very kind.

Speaker 1:

And that's from a former lawyer, because even from my standpoint it was often a lot of wasted back and forth, and I am myself, and there are a number in the legal tech community. A company called Bond Terms is leading the charge in certain respects, as are other companies much in favor of standardized documentation where it's called for, and in many instances it's called for more greatly than some lawyers and some professional counterparties would care to admit. Let me ask Anthony you're coming here to the US and explaining to people what seed legals is all about Do you have to sort of massage the VC side of the equation let alone the lawyers let's talk about the VC side to be more open-minded about working with a founder that wants to himself or herself rely on seed legals?

Speaker 2:

That is a fantastic, the billion-dollar question. When we started seed legals in the UK, of course there was no such platform and 100% of the time everyone went to lawyers. So of course, in any startup, founders always have one or more key problems to solve. Can I build it? Can I raise investment? Will customers want it? Can I create a team? And you know I've been around a while as my co-founders.

Speaker 2:

We're pretty confident that we could raise investment, build a team and build the product. Pretty confident that we could raise investment, build a team and build the product. And we'd spoken to enough founders that we were pretty sure founders would love what we built. But we had no idea if the lawyers or investor would go no, no, no, no, no, you just can't use this platform. We insist on using a lawyer. And in fact we were pleasantly surprised and, of course, importantly, critically surprised that it was the opposite.

Speaker 2:

Investors went this is brilliant. And the reason they said it was brilliant was slightly surprising. One was because when founders came to them, instead of making all the mistakes, the cap table was a mess and they didn't have founder agreements and all the stuff that had to then get sorted because they were already on the mistakes. The cap table was a mess and they didn't have founder agreements and all the stuff that had to then get sorted because they're already on the platform. They didn't make those elementary mistakes, they were sort of cleaned up. I like to think of it like in Pulp Fiction you know they've shot somebody, there's a body, there's blood all over the windshield, the cops are coming in an hour and Mr Wolf cleans it up, and so that's not really. I don't see seed legals as Mr Wolf, but everything is nicely set up. Number two, the founders know what they're talking about and they can react quickly in any negotiation because they understand the deal terms and so on. And number three, the investor gets all their deals on one platform and they get standardized documents. The other really important thing is you know if you have to read a 200-page document each time, it's crazy. So what we do is we show both parties all the key deal terms and people know that the documents are created on our platform. So instead of having to read and of course at least once you should always read the full set of documents, but thereafter you can just look at a deal and go drag along, as 50% tag along is this. You know, board rights are this six investors I get two. Whatever board seats whatever I get two, and seats whatever I get two. And so you can in five minutes see the deal terms. And so investors really like that because it takes the friction out of the funding round. So of course I now need to validate that the same things is. The way funding rounds go is that in early stages it's the founders leading with the term sheet and sending that to angel investors. But once you get VCs, the VC will lead with a term sheet, but in all cases they assume that the startup is going to produce what's called the long-form documents, so they will get on seed legals and do that.

Speaker 2:

Now one of the key differences between the UK and the US is in the UK we can not call ourselves a law firm, but we can freely offer legal advice. Call ourselves a law firm, but we can freely offer legal advice. The legal system in the UK allows, you know, non-law firms to offer legal advice, so we're really a one-stop shop. In the US it's a little bit different, because we can offer the whole platform, but we can't offer legal advice. So we've partnered with law firms and so we've now got a nice seamless experience where the platform does all the document generation, our team's there to answer all products and commercial questions and when you need lawyer advice we've tag teamed in a seamless process.

Speaker 2:

So it's obviously early days for us We've launched recently but everything I've seen from founders indicates that's exactly the same, and I was absolutely delighted that our very first funding round on seed legals closed so seamlessly and so quickly that we barely noticed that it was done and I was just breathtaking to see the founder did everything with about an hour's worth of lawyer help to create an entire funding round cap table, stock certificates, the works and the whole thing closed in like three days. So I think that was a really delightful first validation.

Speaker 1:

Well, congratulations on hearing that and the timing involved. That is extraordinary. In my experience, and to emphasize a point that Anthony has made, I can't overemphasize the importance from the standpoint of getting a deal done quickly and with as little muss and fuss as possible, when you're dealing with professional investors, to have had the opportunity to do that cleanup or if you're early enough in the process and go to seed legals never having had to do the cleanup to begin with, and that is to say, having all the documents in place that the VCs want to look at, having the right structure in place, that the VCs want to look at, having the right structure that is, as Anthony has described, very important. So I'm not offering a legal advice I don't do that anymore, thank goodness. But if someone is not running a lifestyle company but instead wants to grow as a startup would into getting professional money invested. Starting with an outfit like Seed Legals early on is going to keep your hair darker, less gray and save you so much time and expense later on. And as to the VC point here in the US, the VCs expense later on.

Speaker 1:

And as to the VC point here in the US, the VCs and I don't think very many of them perhaps a few really want to take advantage of the information asymmetry. They want to get the deal done. They want to be able to deploy their capital and have satisfactory terms. So if they know they're working with a startup leader who is well-versed in what's going on and can reduce the friction in negotiation, I think they're happy. I mean, they're not as much as they like playing golf with lawyers. They're not overly invested in paying lawyers. They know the deal. Very, very sticky points in super large transactions. I suppose they are happily relying on their lawyers. But I think to Anthony's point here in the US they want to get their money running on the clock, invested, and they should look with favor, a great favor, on seed legals making the process less friction bound.

Speaker 2:

So, if I can hop in, I think what's interesting is that my goal, by the way, isn't to favor any party. My goal is to take the checks and balances that wise people have developed over decades and get both parties to the point that they would have gotten to anyway, but more efficiently. And you know, in the same way, you know for founders to be empowered, founders also need to understand why the investor is going to have a veto right and why they've got certain protections, because the founders are often, you know, really naive and they would go hang on a second. I want to have all the voting rights, I want to have super voting shares. And then we have to explain if you're Mark Zuckerberg and you've built a many hundred billion dollar company, you can have whatever you like. Until then, if you come up with super voting shares and you're telling the investors they're getting common stock, it's going to be a very short conversation and you're going to be hunting for investors for a long time, and this is why it's going to land at this place and you can dial the terms you know in the zone. But if you go out of the zone, you know you're going to be putting so much friction with most investors that it's not going to be worthwhile. And I should add one other thing which is one of the things I really love when I get up in the morning is seeing how founders who are none sort of financial people are now able to raise investments.

Speaker 2:

And my favorite example is Sophia from Sourdough Sophia Bakery. It's a bakery in London. She wants to raise investment to make more bakeries and she's a baker, not a fintech or legal person. And I noticed her on the Seed Legals platform creating safes the UK version and she made quite a few of them. When she got to 50, I decided to call her and say, hey, you know, this sounds interesting, can you tell me more? And I'm convinced that everyone who comes into a bakery she says you know, would you like a baguette, would you like a sourdough and would you like a safe? And so in the past she would never have been able to, you know, find lead investors and do a funding round and so on investors and do a funding round and so on. But now, thanks to a platform, she's able to raise and has been tremendously successful, and then it's done a price round after it's converted all the safes and so on. It's now doing it again and I'm really delighted that people can grow their businesses thanks to tech platforms really democratizing things.

Speaker 1:

No, it's a wonderful world in which we live, so different from even 10 years ago where a lot of standardization had come to VC investing, but certainly a platform such as Seed Legals and I've had the pleasure in speaking to Anthony where he could demonstrate what the platform looks like, and someday I'll get around to doing a video version of the podcast, because the user experience, the user interface is, is so well-designed and I and I I'll say this, it should go without saying I have no interest in the company, of course, only in in being interested in what the company is doing, having seen it in operation, albeit briefly. It is well designed and easy on the eyes, an important aspect of being easy on the brain. So it's not a difficult platform for a founder to parse, and just one point that Anthony had addressed. Then we're going to turn to some sort of words of wisdom for startups based on Anthony's experience in dealing with people on the road to a funding, be it safe or a priced round.

Speaker 1:

There are advantages to safe, certainly One of them the most well one of the most important ones is the less expensive aspects of doing a safe, the quickness with which it can be done relative to the way the US has had its price rounds done to date before seed legals. But there are costs, there are trade-offs and Anthony mentioned some of them and they can come back and bite you. And it's often when you kick the can down the road that you're just incurring what programmers call technical debt and what I'll call legal debt. Things will become more complicated and when you finally pick up the can to do a priced round, you've got some more cleanup to do and, lo and behold, you might be shocked to find that mistakes have been made. So I think doing a safe round with a platform such as Anthony's is probably going to pose less of a problem.

Speaker 1:

But being able to confront the issue of valuation and get to a priced round and begin sometimes the pain point filled, but often the more helpful VC investment is the way to go. If you can do it more quickly and with less expense probably behooves you not to kick the can down the road. So I'm looking forward to seeing Seed Legal's journey here in the US. I don't live too far from New York City and welcome the opportunity to get together with Anthony over drinks, as we have the pleasure of doing in Miami in December. Over drinks, as we have the pleasure of doing in Miami in December.

Speaker 1:

Let's round out the podcast a bit by asking, in addition to what you've described so far, any pointers. Certainly the cleanup one is an important one that you care to impart to our startup leader listenership when it comes to either the legals you know. By legals, of course, anthony, means all the documentation and involvement with the law and contracts that startups have to deal with. Any pointers you care to offer, Anthony.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. So you know one of the my goal, actually, even though my company does the legals my goal is to make the legal part of your business the least amount of time and money you you know we and focus that you need to spend time on. Why? Because a hundred percent on your focus should be on building a product at customers love, and so the key problems that I see that founders have is number one you fall in love with an idea and you begin building it and as a founder often founders are technical founders, so they love building stuff and you define success as building and shipping something, but actually success is people wanting what you've built.

Speaker 2:

So the first thing I see when I see founders and they often send us their pitch decks and ask me to review a pitch deck and so on is that two things One, they've assumed that people want it and haven't really tested that and validated it.

Speaker 2:

And number two, when you talk to founders, they are eloquent in describing this amazing solution.

Speaker 2:

They've got to a problem and then they send you the pitch deck and the pitch deck is indecipherable it's a blockchain, this and distributed ledger that and ai this, and we solve these things and you're looking at going.

Speaker 2:

The eloquence of your verbal pitch is lost in a sea of slides and tam and sam and som and projections.

Speaker 2:

So it's the art of storytelling and the pitch to win over firstly team members to join you, and then customers and then investors by eloquently describing, both verbally and in a pitch deck, the problem you're solving, validating it and then showing how your app in a pitch deck, the problem you're solving, validating it and then showing how your app. You know your pitch deck with lifestyle images showing people using your app and so on. So, actually, the key I do a lot of startup workshops and mentoring and so on, and although my business is there to solve the legals and so on, and although my business is there to solve the legals, the biggest problem founders really have is validating that people want something and then constructing a story that has investors, in this case, excited to invest, and actually that's where I spend a lot of my time doing, you know, mentoring and so on on that, because if you can't sort that, you're never going to get to, you know needing to close your round because you're not going to have any investors.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and and as a corollary to that, I might add that even before you put together your first slide, you should have and I'm being prescriptive here, I know, but I think with good reason you as the founder should have had ample time to test the market, whether it's with interviews, whether it's with Zoom calls, whether it's face-to-face, whether it's surveys, because you're building that story that you want to tell in your pitch deck, either to prospective employees, fellow team members or to investors. Your ability to tell that story will come from the hard work you've done before you even think of describing the story Getting the data from the market to figure out whether what you're building is what people want to buy and, if not, iterating on that decision to build whatever you're building, and then figuring out too how best to reach these people and what their price points are. So once you've done that homework even before you've talked to Anthony, do the homework go out in the market, pound the pavement figuratively or literally and get an idea of what the market perception is likely to be. You have an idea in your head, you have a product you want to build, but you kind of make sure the market is receptive and that doesn't just come from a priori thinking you have to go out there empirically and get data by touching the market, and then from the data that you've gathered in doing so, you build that story. And that story has to include what you've learned and, most importantly, if you can also pick that up not only on customer preferences but also on a go to market strategy.

Speaker 1:

By the time Anthony sees your pitch deck or an investor, you're far further along Because in addition to being technical, you got to be business driven. So Anthony will help you with the company to legal fit, but you've got to help develop the product to market fit and do so early on. Come to Anthony or others for advice and mentoring and then Anthony would see legals when you're ready to go. Raise money can smooth the way.

Speaker 2:

And, I think, nicely put. And, by the way, you know, I call some of that customer driven development, because what often happens is the tech team will sit in their office or at home behind their screen thinking about what people might want and isn't this going to be awesome. But you really need to go out and talk to people, and so you know, the first thing I did was, as a ceo, get my butt on a plane, go off to new york new york has unbelievable number of startup events and then do at least two events a day, talk to as many founders as I could, you know, describe what we're doing, and when people go, it doesn't make sense. Then you refine it until people go oh no, I need one of those, that's awesome. Oh right, no, I've made a mistake.

Speaker 2:

I made an LLC or what's QSBS. And then you learn and then you're radioing back to base like team Don't do forget that we thought we were building that. Nobody wants it. They want one of these and then you refine the messaging and your loop time. To do that is so much faster because you're, as the you know CEO or CTO, sitting in front of customers and learning what they really want rather than imagining what they want.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that 50 set of interviews, 50 in number, 100, 150, 200 in number. Believe me, there have been startups that have, before coding anything, perhaps except the barest bones of a product, that have done 200 interviews literally. That is an investment of time and sweat, no doubt costly, that is going to pay so many dividends down the road in so many different directions, of your so many different aspects, I should say of your journey, startup leaders in legal tech or otherwise.

Speaker 1:

But you know my beat is legal tech and you know it does help to have been a lawyer to know, if you're selling to lawyers, what your pain points were. But it's not enough. I think you're going to refine your insights immensely if you can do what Anthony so aptly described as customer-driven development. That's the label and it's a good one. As customer-driven development, that's the label and it's a good one. Anthony, thank you so much for being a part of the podcast. I think the signal-to-noise ratio was almost infinite here because you imparted so much valuable advice, and I wish you again, echoing my earlier sentiments, godspeed when it comes to getting seed legals out there in the market and adopted, and I encourage people again with no financial or other interest other than my view of what might be good for startups.

Speaker 1:

And because I like Anthony he's a good fellow I do encourage startups to take a look. So Anthony at seedlegalscom, is that right?

Speaker 2:

Seedlegalscom. You can reach me Anthony at seedlegalscom or drop me a note on LinkedIn. Anthony Rose, I'm always delighted to help and you know what I really love to help on both the things that you know we have as paid services, but also on the things around it to help you grow your startup faster.

Speaker 1:

You heard it and I would heed that call. I would heed that call. I'm delighted that Anthony has come to the city that's a half an hour from here in New York, to have that be the beachhead for seed legals. And speaking of New York, as I've said to Anthony before, I'll say it again, as I have with all my guests, when we can get together to hoist a pint in some of the saloons in New York, let's do that soon and again. Godspeed and best of luck with Seed Legal. Look forward to seeing it grow and prosper.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, Charlie.

Speaker 1:

And thank you for being a guest and look forward to seeing you face to face soon. Thanks so much, a guest, and look forward to seeing you face-to-face soon. Thanks so much. Thank you for listening to the LegalTech Startup Focus podcast. If you're interested in LegalTech startups and enjoyed this podcast, please consider joining the free LegalTech Startup Focus community by going to wwwlegaltechstartupfocuscom and signing up. Again, thanks.